When nature gets weird: Researching green-blooded lizards with Zach Rodriguez
Get ready for the weird! We’re learning all about Green-blooded lizards—not from a
sci-fi movie, but straight out of nature! Papua New Guinea to be exact. We’re joined
by Zack Rodriguez, Ph.D. Candidate in the College of Science’s Museum of Natural Sciences,
to learn all about green-blooded lizards, the importance of studying green blood,
and how Zack is preparing for an upcoming expedition to Papua New Guinea to discover
more. (Transcript below.)
Listen to the full episode below, and subscribe to LSU Experimental on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Stitcher, Spotify, TuneIn or anywhere you get your podcasts.
LSU Experimental is a podcast series that shares the research and the “behind the scenes” stories of LSU faculty, student, and alumni investigators across the disciplines. Listen and learn about the exciting topics of study and the individuals posing the questions. Each episode is recorded and produced in CxC Studio 151 on the campus of Louisiana State University, and is supported by LSU Communication across the Curriculum and LSU College of Science. LSU Experimental is hosted by Dr. Becky Carmichael and edited by Kyle Sirovy.
Additional Resources
- Zach's Instagram @boricuabites
Transcript
Becky Carmichael
[0:01] This is LSU Experimental, where we explore exciting research occurring at Louisiana State University and learn about the individuals posing the questions. I'm Becky Carmichael. Get ready for the weird. We're learning all about green blooded lizards, and not from a sci-fi movie, but straight out of nature. Papua New Guinea to be exact. We're joined by Zach Rodriguez, PhD candidate in the College of Sciences Museum of Natural Science to learn all about green blooded lizards, the importance of studying green blood, and how Zach is preparing for an upcoming expedition to Papua New Guinea to discover more.
Zack Rodriguez
[0:46] Humans, like most vertebrates, have red blood. The red color comes from the hemoglobin protein our blood uses to transport oxygen. But did you know that animal blood comes in a rainbow of colors? You may have seen the blue blood of an octopus or purple blood in a marine worm. This is because some animals use different oxygen carrying proteins that emit various colors. But what if I told you that on the island of New Guinea, there are lizards that have lime green blood? It may sound like science fiction, but their blood is so bright that it stains their muscles, organs, tissues, and bones. What's weirder is that they use red colored hemoglobin just like us. So you may wonder what's going on. I'm Zach Rodriguez, a PhD candidate in Chris Austin's lab here at LSU And we're investigating one of the most unusual traits in the animal kingdom. Green blood. The green coloration is caused by a large amount of the bio pigment called biliverdin. You can see similar blue-green coloration when you get a bruise. This is because biliverdin is produced whenever red blood cell dies. But if too many bio pigments like biliverdin build up in the blood, they can damage DNA, kill cells, destroy neurons, and cause pathological conditions like jaundice. However, these lizards have bio pigment levels that are 20 times higher the lethal concentration in humans, but they remain perfectly healthy. Our recent research has shown that green blood likely evolved multiple times in lizards. This suggests that green blood serves an important ecological function. We speculate that the toxic blood deters infection by Plasmodium. The parasite that transmits malaria. Dramatic changes in body form, like the green blood in these lizards, offer exciting opportunities to study the origin and diversification of extraordinary traits, and how these modifications contribute to the biodiversity we see today. Nowadays, we can use genetics to unlock the mystery of these extraordinary traits. Ultimately, we want to better understand the relationship between ecology, morphology, and genetics. Currently, we're working to identify the genes and proteins responsible for green blood. To do this, we're comparing thousands of genes between red and green blooded lizards in a complex game of spot the difference. Once we characterize genes and connect them to their functions. We can identify which ones are responsible for green blood, and which ones offer resistance to toxicity. Understanding how they tolerate bio pigment toxicity may lead to non traditional treatments to common health problems like jaundice or malaria. Now this brings up an important point about how basic discovery science can reach can reap unintended rewards. Studying lizards from halfway around the world provide insights into genetics and biomedicine. And this is the type of work we do at LSU's Museum of Natural Science. Our scientists document and describe biodiversity from all over the world, and conduct basic research and ecology and evolution. We can then share findings and allow other labs to apply their unique skill sets to better understand an organisms implications for chemistry or biomedicine. None of this would have been possible without first discovering new species, or examining overlooked creatures like lizards, and of course, funding from organizations like the National Science Foundation, which support basic discovery science like ours. Now this brings up an important point about how basic discovery science can reap unintended rewards. Studying lizards from halfway around the world provide insights into genetics and biomedicine.
Becky Carmichael
[4:15] Hi, Zack.
Zack Rodriguez
[4:16] Hi, how's it going? Thanks for having me.
Becky Carmichael
[4:17] Hey, I'm glad you were able to join me today. I'm really excited to learn about your research on these green blooded lizards.
Zack Rodriguez
[4:26] Yeah. They're super cool.
Becky Carmichael
[4:28] They seem really cool. The pictures and everything I think I wouldn't even know what to do if I saw one in the wild. But before we get into that, would you please tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and your background? And then what really drew you into this field of study?
Zack Rodriguez
[4:45] Sure, um, I guess I can start a little bit of history. I mean, in addition to my passion for science in nature, I have been a herpetologist for as long as I can remember. I mean, I brought a photo of me with a little lizard.
Becky Carmichael
[5:00] Oh my gosh!
Zack Rodriguez
[5:01] Always been a herpetologist at heart.
Becky Carmichael
[5:03] So you just showed me this... You've got this... Is that an Anole?
Zack Rodriguez
[5:07] It is and I'm about eight years old and I attached it to my nose as an experiment. You know?
Becky Carmichael
[5:12] And...
Zack Rodriguez
[5:13] Jaw-clinging ability...
Becky Carmichael
[5:14] And how well did that experiment work?
Zack Rodriguez
[5:16] Great. They have great clinging abilities. But I've just always been fascinated with reptiles. They're just like little dinosaurs. It wasn't until I went to college that I really started my passion for research and biology. You know, I was dissuaded originally from pursuing a career in wildlife biology, but I got into research in my undergrad working in zebrafish lab, studying fish genetics, and we looked at how tiny changes and gene expression would lead to changes in the zebrafish. And I was fascinated by that. I was fascinated how tiny changes could result in in big changes morphology. And I began to wonder what happens at larger scales. I ended up going to a research internship in Texas in a reptile genomics lab and they had a natural history museum attached. And I was enamored with the idea of working in a natural history museum. And once I learned that could marry reptiles and genetic research and evolutionary biology, it was game over. And that kind of brought me to Chris Austin's lab here, where we study reptile genetics and biodiversity. And it's... We have the Museum of Natural Science, which I love.
Becky Carmichael
[6:26] So with some of this research, or some of this, this history of yours, were you doing this as an undergraduate?
Zack Rodriguez
[6:33] Yes, all of this was undergraduate research before I came here.
Becky Carmichael
[6:36] Wow. So that's a lot of different systems to explore, but then also just centered around the genetic components.
Zack Rodriguez
[6:42] It was. Yeah. And I love just trying to figure out how genetic changes translate to diversity that we see today.
Becky Carmichael
[6:50] So what are some of the events that led you from being or led you to Chris Austin, and then this particular area? We've landed on the green blooded lizards.
Zack Rodriguez
[7:00] Sure, yeah. Um, so I think it really started during my internship at the University of Texas Austin. I worked on some Asian vine snakes. And I learned that they're what's called cryptic. There's way more diversity in their genes than what we... than what's present on the outside. And they're divided into different ecoregions in Southeast Asia. And I just, I became, fascinated with that. So I knew that when... I knew I wanted to go to graduate school and continue studying and continue studying reptiles and genetics, and, you know, I looked for labs that were working in Southeast Asia, working on reptile genetics and biodiversity. and Chris Austin's lab was one of the prominent ones and he's one of the only people that work in Australia, New Guinea. One of the few people that work in Australia, New Guinea. I started out working on lizards, and biogeography,and biodiversity. Basically using genes and geography to study how species are related to each other and how they diversify. But I gravitated to this idea of using genetics to understand cool traits. And lizards have a lot of cool traits. And Chris has been slowly picking away this green blood project. Once I found out about it, I had to get involved. And he's been extremely supportive. And he's allowed me to explore this green blooded project in great detail. And he's given me funds to do so.
Becky Carmichael
[8:31] So let's let's go ahead and dive right into the whole idea about what's happening with these, these green blooded lizards.
Zack Rodriguez
[8:38] Yes!
Becky Carmichael
[8:39] So I don't know which to start first. Either you can tell me about what... there's all these colors of blood, or we can go right to the lizards. What do you think makes sense?
Zack Rodriguez
[8:50] I think talking right about... going right into the green blooded lizards is cool. So there, there's these green blooded lizards. They exist in the world and they're unique because no other bird, mammal, or reptile has green blood.
Becky Carmichael
[9:06] Really, it's just nobody else?
Zack Rodriguez
[9:09] Nobody else. There's some fish that have green blood that are also caused by biliverdin. There's like a Japanese eel and maybe some sculpins, which are like Scorpion fish.
Becky Carmichael
[9:20] Wait. Scorpion fish? What were they called?
Zack Rodriguez
[9:23] Sculpins is what the group of fish is called. I'm pretty sure they're called Scorpion fish, but they have some green blood, but no one's looked into that either. But um, what's interesting is that the reason most animals have different colored blood is because there's this transport protein, like humans have hemoglobin, and different transport proteins emit different colors. But these green blooded lizards have normal hemoglobin just like we do. But they have this large amount of this other pigment called biliverdin that overwhelms the red color of the red blood cells. And it's a toxin. It's super toxic. They should be dead. This... it's called biliverdin. It's the product of red, the dead red blood cells. Normally, biliverdin exists in all of us, it exists in almost all vertebrates. But we quickly filter it out of our bodies normally.
Becky Carmichael
[10:19] Wow...
Zack Rodriguez
[10:20] But these lizards keep it around for some reason. And they have the highest recorded concentration of biliverdin of any recorded animal ever.
Becky Carmichael
[10:31] So I try to get this in my head straight. So then it's not that they have differences in the hemoglobin
Zack Rodriguez
[10:40] Correct.
Becky Carmichael
[10:41] So those other organisms that you mentioned, kind of the monologue of having like violet blood or blue blood, their hemoglobin is would you say structurally different?
Zack Rodriguez
Yes. Correct.
Becky Carmichael
Okay. So it's structurally different from ours. But these... this is almost like just this added layer of the biliverdin, right?
Zack Rodriguez
[10:57] Yes, it's just, they have all the same components that red blooded lizards have and that even we might have, but they just have an overwhelming concentration of this toxin that should be filtered out of the body, but they keep it around.
Becky Carmichael
[11:02] And this, this is more than one species, right?
Zack Rodriguez
[11:12] Yes. There's... It's in five... There's five described species of green blooded lizards. And we think there's more.
Becky Carmichael
[11:18] I like how you said, five described species. And so you said these are in New Guinea?
Zack Rodriguez
[11:25] Yes.
Becky Carmichael
[11:26] What kind of location is this?
Zack Rodriguez
[11:28] Oh, yeah, New Guinea is fascinating. You can use a... it's a biodiversity hotspot it's called. It's a large island. It's actually the second largest island in the world. It's north of Australia, east of Indonesia. And it is largely a tropical rain forest, but it's definitely an island of extremes. There's montane forests. There's dry coastal forests. There's freshwater swamps, brackish mangrove swamps, just like we have in Louisiana. There's savannas. There's Alpine grasslands. And New Guinea has some of the highest elevational gradients in the world. Some of these lizards live at like above 3000 meters, which is incredibly insane. And a lot of animals have adaptations to these different ecosystems. And these are just a couple ecosystems name a few. New Guinea even has a glacier. I think it's the only tropical island in the world that has a glacier.
Becky Carmichael
[12:23] What?!
Zack Rodriguez
[12:24] And this creates a diversity of habitats. You can be battered by violent rain, experience intense heat or humidity, get lost in swamp, or disappear in a snowstorm. All on a tropical island. So this island is incredibly diverse.
Becky Carmichael
[12:38] This sounds both amazing and a little scary in terms of kind of going in and trying to figure out where to find these lizards because I would have said, "Oh, you would need to go to the rain forest or something. some kind of more humid wet location." Now for these particular lizards are you finding them across the elevation gradient?
Zack Rodriguez
[13:08] Yes. And that is the most interesting thing because there... we... other than being a lizard in New Guinea and having green blood we cannot find... we cannot pinpoint another ecological trait that unites these green blooded lizards. So some of these lizards are living lowland, coastal forest, right it close to sea level, some with it mid elevation, and some live high elevation about 3000 meters high, which is extremely high, and they have adaptations for high elevation. Not all of these lizards are green, some are green, some are Brown, some are gray. And they're just all doing different things are ecologically diverse, which makes this whole green blooded thing interesting and difficult at the same time. That makes sense?
Becky Carmichael
[13:52] That does. So you've got these different species, different locations. They're displaying an external phenotype.
Zack Rodriguez
[14:03] Mhmm...
Becky Carmichael
[14:04] That's different?
Zack Rodriguez
[14:05] Exactly.
Becky Carmichael
[14:06] Would you say? Can we say that they are all related?
Zack Rodriguez
[14:11] Yes.
Becky Carmichael
[14:12] Genetically?
Zack Rodriguez
[14:13] In a way.
Becky Carmichael
[14:14] Okay.
Zack Rodriguez
[14:14] So these five, the five species that we all know of are nested in this group of closely related lizards that live in New Guinea and Australia. There's about 50 or 60 species in this specific group. There's other lizards that live in New Guinea and in Australia, but this group of closely related lizards contains these green blooded lizards. But each green blooded lizard is weak. I'm sorry, let me backtrack a little bit. We actually just published a study on the phylogenetics of green blooded lizards. And that means that we looked at how these green blooded lizards are related to each other, and how closely related they are to other red blooded lizards. And we found that they're pretty diverse genetically, even though they're in this group of closely related lizards, they're pretty genetically separated from each other. Which is insane, because the default expectation is that all green blooded lizards are related.
Becky Carmichael
[15:12] Yeah. And that's what I would have assumed as well. So that's even another layer that's really interesting.
Zack Rodriguez
[15:19] It is. And that's what scientists have been assuming for the past 40 years.
Becky Carmichael
[15:23] So that kind of leads me to one of my next questions was you know, I would assume that like traditional zoologists they noticed this green blooded lizard right away. So how long have researchers actually been looking at green blooded lizards as well as into the cause and the importance of that green blood?
Zack Rodriguez
[15:45] And I'm just surprised as you. These lizards were first described in 1969.
Becky Carmichael
[15:52] Like 50 years ago?!
Zack Rodriguez
[15:53] Yes. So they've been known. It was actually in a science paper, which is a prominent journal in science, and science and biology. I think the first barrier is that these lizards are in New Guinea. New Guinea remains mostly poorly explored, not well documented, despite how incredibly diverse it is there. So therefore, there aren't a lot of... there hasn't been a lot of collecting, there aren't specimens readily available to scientists. But I think lizards in general just suffer from... They don't have as high visibility as some of the other interesting organisms. So I think these green blooded lizards remain hidden in the literature. For so long, they remain hidden in taxonomic description. So unless you're reading through pages of lizard descriptions, you might not have come across it. And Chris was the... I don't think it was really mentioned in the literature until Chris, my advisor, looked about 25 years later looked into these little lizards, and he confirmed that biliverdin was the, I guess, the cause of the green blood.
Becky Carmichael
[15:54] Wow. And we didn't really say this. How big are these lizards, by the way?
Zack Rodriguez
[17:01] They're actually pretty small. They're little arboreal lizards. They're about maybe six inches long. Um, they vary. Some are bigger than others. But they're pretty small. They all live in the tree tops.
Becky Carmichael
[17:10] So about six inches long, so they're a little bit bigger than the green anoles that we have in around the Baton Rouge, Louisiana area, right?
Zack Rodriguez
[17:20] Correct. Some are about the same size, but other species get bigger.
Becky Carmichael
[17:23] Awesome. And as I say, those things I can see all around my house. Sometimes they come into my house. I'm getting better about catching them.
Zack Rodriguez
[17:33] Let me know. I love seeing them. And that brings up another point. These lizards are actually, from what I understand, at least two of the species are fairly common, maybe not as common as anoles here. But you can you see them all over New Guinea.
Becky Carmichael
[17:47] Wow. So I don't know how to ask this question.
ZACK RODRIGUEZ
Sure. I mean... go ahead.
BECKY CARMICHAEL
And this kind of goes to, you know, I think that you just answered it. Do you feel like it was a lack of tech technology that's left this kind of puzzle, unresolved? And when I'm saying technology, I'm saying in our ability to really analyze the genetics. The genetic structure of these organisms.
Zack Rodriguez
[18:12] Yea of course, um, I think that's a barrier to understanding why these lizards have green blood and how they tolerate this incredible toxicity. But I think, as for people actually conducting experiments, or maybe sell experiments, trying to see what's different about their red blood cells, how they might, what they do with the extra biliverdin, none of that's been studied, no one's really looked into it. And I've seen similar studies in the 80s, with fish where fish have lots of biliverdin, and they'll inject biliverdin into a red blood cell from a fish that has green blood. But none of those kind of studies exists with these lizards. And I think it's just because they're in New Guinea, we don't have specimens. It's extremely difficult to go and collect in New Guinea.
Becky Carmichael
[19:00] Yeah.
Zack Rodriguez
[19:01] But hopefully, we're we're giving them the visibility that they need and deserve.
Becky Carmichael
[19:05] Well, and I think that it's always exciting when we hear about something that's different and unique. But then there's also this layer of caution of like, you're going to go into this place that is pristine, and you use the word like mega diverse.
Zack Rodriguez
[19:20] Yes.
Becky Carmichael
[19:21] And so it's like, how do you protect that? That? How do you make that balance of protecting it, as well as studying and uncovering what it what it holds?
Zack Rodriguez
[19:29] Of course, um, well actually get into mega diversity... the mega diverse Island of New Guinea, because it's just so interesting. And I know many people love to study there and are very interested. So to get at the question of mega diverse, New Guinea is a large island. It makes up less than 1% of the world's landmass, but it is estimated to hold about 5% of all Global Diversity.
Becky Carmichael
[19:55] What?!
Zack Rodriguez
[19:56] Which is insane and that's what makes it one of the mega hotspots of the world. It's called a biodiversity hotspot. And even more interesting is that about two thirds of all New Guinea species, plants, animals, everything. Two thirds of the species are only found in New Guinea and cannot be found anywhere else in the world.
Becky Carmichael
[20:14] So it has a high endemic...
Zack Rodriguez
[20:15] Yes.
Becky Carmichael
[20:16] Population or... high endemic species populations.
Zack Rodriguez
[20:19] Mhmm. And, of course, this is this is great, because if the species exists only there, that means that conservation programs can go and protect large swathes of forests and say we cannot touch these pristine forests, because it's actually like monoculture plantations, like palm oil, and just oil, oil in general as a huge threat to the biodiversity in New Guinea. But if we can show and document describe all the diversity there, we can go and protect it. Now, this may be what you're getting at, when we go, we're going to do... We're going to leave it as pristine as possible. We are only going to collect and take what we need, we will only collect a handful of lizards that will not do anything to the population and will not have any negative impacts to the population in any way. And we want to keep New Guinea pristine and protected and keep the biodiversity there.
Becky Carmichael
[21:24] That was that was going to be one of my questions. Was the whole sampling process of... you know that in order to go and learn about these particular species... Would you describe what, as comfortable as you are, would you describe what is the the sampling process like?
Zack Rodriguez
[21:47] Sure, um, and this comes up a lot, especially, especially because I work at a museum. So I work at Natural History Museum, and they basically serve as like a library for about diversity. And we collect whole specimens. So we'll take a specimen in the field, and euthanize it humanely, of course, and we'll take tons of samples from it. We write down where it was, what it was doing, the exact location, the time and place, whether everything... We'll collect stomach samples, stomach content, see what it was eating, we'll take a liver sample which contains tons of DNA. Maybe even like a blood sample. And then once we get those tissues, we can extract DNA from those. And then we keep the whole organism to look at its internal morphology. We can look at their toe pads, their tails, their teeth, everything, their tongues, and we preserve it. And this way, when we come back to the United States with our lizard, and we say sequence their genome or something we can say this is the organism that we sequenced the genome from. Do you have any doubts about where it came from, or what it is, here's the organism that we have. And I think our work is very important in collecting a handful of whole organisms.
Becky Carmichael
[23:03] Well, it sounds like, by doing what you just described, it's not just for this one project, but there's multiple projects. Multiple studies that can occur or are incurring in tandem with your work.
Zack Rodriguez
[23:19] Exactly.
Becky Carmichael
[23:19] And that.. That to me is exciting. Plus, I'm also excited that you now you've got the actual whole specimen that others can even appreciate externally.
Zack Rodriguez
[23:31] Of course, yeah, and I love bringing up... I mean, when people come to the museum, and they want to learn about green blooded lizards, we have a couple green blooded lizards in the collection, I can show them. I can show that they, you know, are little colorful, pretty lizards, and they have these long grass style fingers to help climb trees. They have little adhesive toe pads. They even have curly prehensile tails. One species does.
Becky Carmichael
[23:54] What?!
Zack Rodriguez
[23:54] So that means they can curl around little branches and help them navigate trees. And studying any of these, or addressing any of these questions or interesting traits wouldn't be impossible without a whole specimen. And I love it.
Becky Carmichael
[24:08] I want to go back to to New Guinea, because we mentioned you know, it's mega diverse. There's a community or population of people that are present on the island, right? Have you been able to learn anything from the communities regarding this particular subset of of lizards?
Zack Rodriguez
[24:31] Um, no. In short, sorry to disappoint. I actually haven't been to New Guinea. And I'm super excited to go. And we can talk about that later, if you want. But you get these incredibly diverse, I think one of the most diverse countries in the world. There's hundreds of indigenous languages. So to actually...
Becky Carmichael
[24:53] Wait... Hundreds of indigenous languages?
Zack Rodriguez
[24:56] Languages, yes. And that's what makes Guinea really hard to collect. There isn't a unifying language. And that's one of the barriers to actually working in New Guinea. You might go to this one specific spot, and the natives there agreed to allow you to come collect. But if you go, you know, a mile further, there might be a completely different community that has a different set of rules that does not want... they do not want you there. I don't... I'm not aware of any information about the green blooded lizards from the community. I don't know if they use it for medicinal purposes or anything like that. But I'm excited to learn.
Becky Carmichael
[25:32] So let's just dive into the your upcoming expedition. So this is 10 weeks, you said, we have talked. You told me it was to the Highlands... the Highland regions of New Guinea. How are you preparing for your maiden expedition?
Zack Rodriguez
[25:51] Um... yeah, I've actually never been on a multi week expedition. I've been on short trips. I've been on one two weeks, and I've never been to such a remote place like New Guinea. I am ecstatic and terrified at the same time.
Becky Carmichael
[26:03] I would be too.
Zack Rodriguez
[26:05] The gear is tricky. As I mentioned, New Guinea has an extremely diverse climate. So I need to gear up for every type of weather possible. It's tropical, and will be going up into the mountains where it's extremely cold. So I need to pack for really hot, humid weather, dry hot, dry weather and cold dry weather. I feel like I'm going into the Hunger Games or something. Not really sure. But luckily, Chris has 20 years of experience collecting in New Guinea so he's been helping me get the right... attain the right gear. You know, GPSs, cameras, what type of shirts to wear. Things like that. What kind of snacks to bring back.
Becky Carmichael
[26:44] Snacks are important.
Zack Rodriguez
[26:44] Of course. And I also have the advice and support of the museum community. The Louisiana... the LSU Museum of Natural Science. Our scientists go all over the world. A lot of the fellow graduate students go on week long expeditions to or multi week expeditions to remote places like South America and Southeast Asia, and I have a lot of help and support from them. Once we go there, what I do know is that we'll... because we are going to remote mountain tops, which should contain a lot of undescribed diversity. There's no roadways. There's not really... there aren't any good ways to get there. So actually chartering a plane to get to these mountain tops.
Becky Carmichael
[27:21] Nice!
Zack Rodriguez
[27:22] And we'll travel by plane and by boat. And we will. Chris knows a couple of people from the local community and they'll help us navigate. And when we're there, we'll hire a group of about five to seven, what are called porters, and they will help carry equipment, set up camp, cook for us, help us clean while we're in the field. So we'll have a little community while we're there.
Becky Carmichael
[27:44] That's wonderful. And so from Louisiana State University, are you the only person going or is Chris going with you?
Zack Rodriguez
[27:50] No. Chris is... I wouldn't be going by myself. Not for the first time. I'd love to lead an expedition in the future, but Chris is going. He's leading it. Myself and another student of my lab, Jackson Roberts is going and he's he's actually looking at a really cool water snake study in New Guinea.
Becky Carmichael
[28:07] Wow. So it is exciting and yet absolutely just logistics. Plus, once you get there, I imagine there's permits for both collecting there plus coming back, right?
Zack Rodriguez
[28:20] Oh, yes! When you collect anywhere, for great reason, there are extremely strict permitting processes not only for where you're collecting, but also your home like United States. And we have to... Chris is actually taking care of this one. He's going to New Guinea about two weeks ahead of time to take care of all the permits. You know, he's been there for 20 years, so he has good relations with them. We have to say exactly what we're collecting. How many of these species we plan to collect and prove that what we're taking will not affect the population in any way. And same thing, when we come back to the United States. We have to offer the same kind of information. Show that we're not taking any endangered species or any protected species, things like that.
Becky Carmichael
[29:02] If you could say it in a sentence or two, why is this so important? Why is this particular expedition so important?
Zack Rodriguez
[29:09] Oh, yeah, one or two sentences, okay. I think, one, documenting and describing biodiversity is a huge goal of ours and of the museum. And New Guinea, remains largely undescribed. There are hundreds and hundreds of species. Every time Chris goes, he brings back new species. And one of the mountaintops we're going to has never been documented by scientists. Never been documented and described. People may have gone there, but they haven't published anything on it. They haven't done any surveys. So we're actually going to collect very basic initial surveys about what kind of lizards and reptiles we'll find. And that will go on. If we can just add to this wealth... If we can just make New Guinea an even more, if that's possible, more invaluable biodiversity hotspot, I think this will make waves in protecting the pristine habitats there and protect them from anthropogenic disturbances. I mean, the people, the indigenous people there, and the species there are always threatened by outside forces. And anything we do to document and describe those species before they get eradicated or go extinct is important.
Becky Carmichael
[30:23] So this is really... you know... you're embarking on the beginning of the early stages of your career. This really sounds like you've got an idea of a direction of, one, where you hope your career will go, but also the impact of your career. In the future, do you see yourself potentially remaining in this Southeast Asia location?
Zack Rodriguez
[30:47] Yeah, I think so. Um, as long as I can. One of the reasons I applied to Chris's lab is to obtain the training and funding to do permitting processes in remote areas so that I can continue to work in places like Southeast Asia or South America. Of course, I love lizards, and I love studying genetics and evolution. I'd be open to studying things here in the United States. But I'm just enamored with the biodiversity in Southeast Asia. And I hope that I can continue to do that. And that people will, I hope I can market myself as a researcher that people trust to go on these expeditions in the future and continue to conduct basic Ecology and Evolutionary studies on organisms.
Becky Carmichael
[31:30] So you know that you keep coming back to biodiversity. And you've also mentioned, you know, basic science basic research. I want to ask about why this is so significant, and what what are these? What more do you think that we can discover? Plus, what have you been able to learn about even the species that you've studied?
Zack Rodriguez
[31:54] Sure, one thing I mean, particularly with New Guinea, in addition to just general biodiversity, New Guinea harbors some of the weirdest animals on the planet. I don't know if you ever heard of like a tree kangaroo. But there are a tree kangaroos and they are only found in New Guinea.
Becky Carmichael
[32:09] Oh my gosh.
Zack Rodriguez
[32:11] There's a bird that has poison in it. Pitohui I think it's called. There's an endless supply of weird animals that are only found in New Guinea and I think there's so many more that we can find. So if we think about the lizards that I'm studying, they're even more interesting than just having green blood. Some of these lizards give birth to live young.
Becky Carmichael
[32:36] What?!
Zack Rodriguez
[32:37] Yeah, so humans aren't the only ones that do that. Plenty of lizards give birth to live young. This is usually in response to an unfavorable climate, like life at high elevation, or if it's too cold, you might want to give birth to live young. Some of these arboreal species have adhesive toe pads, which is only seen in geckos, and I think that is just fascinating. I just think there's a lot of really cool traits that are undocumented and undescribed in New Guinea. And I think if we start to increase the visibility of these interesting traits, I think it will inspire other scientists to investigate them further. And look at how, again, I keep going back to this thing of like how changes in genetics lead to changes and morphology and ultimately contribute to biodiversity. And I think studying these weird, extraordinary outlier traits is a great proxy to do those kind of things.
Becky Carmichael
[33:33] And I also think that the highlighting of those traits build interest in these just unique, different out of the ordinary, but then also the realization that this is on earth, and this is part of our planet, that, you know, we're sharing these these spaces. I also think it's really cool what information can be found within the genetics, that may provide knowledge about processes and may be applied to other things that we just don't know yet. So it's important to even ask the initial questions.
Zack Rodriguez
[34:08] Of course, that's 100% true. And I think that's one of the most exciting things, I think. I guess there's a specific sample as it relates to a green blooded stuff, I think we're really the way we're studying the genes and genetics of green blood, I think we're laying a foundation for an integrative way to think about biliverdin and red blood cell metabolism. And I think we're laying a really nice foundation so that other other labs that are better suited to study say biomedicine or more implied scientists can get behind and explore even further,
Becky Carmichael
[34:44] I can see questions. Well, one, you've already mentioned that in the monologue regarding malaria, but I also see that in you've mentioned that they are not filtering this out. How are they still able to exist?
Zack Rodriguez
[35:01] Oh, that's the question of the day. That's what we're trying to figure out.
Becky Carmichael
[35:01] Oh OK!
Zack Rodriguez
[35:04] So normally, in humans and other vertebrates, if you build up too many bio pigments, you're considered jaundiced and biliverdin kind of just wrecks havoc on the body. And you know, I mentioned it tears up cells, destroys neurons, newborn babies, you also, you may have heard of neonatal jaundice. And this happens when a baby or a newborn, their livers haven't kicked in yet. And they haven't started filtering out these dead red blood cells or biliverdin. And that's always scary because biliverdin can pass through the blood brain barrier and cause permanent nerve damage. And that's a very low concentrations, and these lizards have an extremely high concentration of this stuff.
Becky Carmichael
[35:45] You're giving me flashbacks to my son, because that was one of the things where he was perfectly... color was perfect, had him home for a couple of days. And then I was like, oh, my goodness, my child is turning colors.
Zack Rodriguez
[35:57] Yellow. Yeah.
Becky Carmichael
[35:58] And you know, as a nervous mom, I'm calling the doctor and she's like, it's gonna be okay. This is what we're gonna do. You're gonna go sit outside and let him like bake in the sun.
Zack Rodriguez
[36:07] Yeah yeah! Phototherapy is a way to make biliverdin less harmful. Yeah, until your liver can filter it out. It's super cool. But to go back to your question, we really want to figure out, one, my advisors really focusing on what advantages it is to keeping this toxicity in your body. He's explored many different hypotheses. I can talk about them if you want. But I'm more interested in figuring out how they're surviving, like the genetics behind the toxicity resistance. What's going on in their bodies that allow them to not be jaundiced and remain perfectly healthy?
Becky Carmichael
[36:42] How long have you been working on that question?
Zack Rodriguez
[36:45] Oh, about three years.
Becky Carmichael
[36:47] Yeah.
Zack Rodriguez
[36:47] Well, you know, in every little tiny answer leads to more questions.
Becky Carmichael
[36:54] The whole process of science, right?
Zack Rodriguez
[36:57] Of course, but luckily we've been slowly acquiring more and more funding from people that are excited about our research, which I'm excited for. It's really nice being justified, and other people telling you like, what you're doing is okay, and it's exciting, and it's good science. And I'm looking forward to continually working on the genetics and the proteins behind green blood.
Becky Carmichael
[37:16] You've mentioned validation of what you're doing good science and that you've received funding. We really have to mention you've recently received a significant funding to go on this next expedition. Let's do a little shout out or...
Zack Rodriguez
[37:30] Sure, yeah. This is actually... my advisor was the one who submitted this one. We've been trying... we've been looking for funding from National Geographic, and we applied a couple times. But this year they were finally really excited to fund our research to go to New Guinea. They're giving us... it's very expensive to go to New Guinea, because it's not easily accessible. Like you said, some of the mountaintops we need to go to we have to charter a plane. And that's extremely expensive. And we need to hire a team to help us carry equipment everywhere. So yeah, we received about $30,000-40,000 to go on this 10 week expedition.
Becky Carmichael
[38:06] Wow!
Zack Rodriguez
[38:06] And it sounds like a lot.
Becky Carmichael
[38:10] It's going to go fast.
Zack Rodriguez
[38:10] But it goes extremely quickly. And we're trying, of course, we're doing everything in our power to maximize every single dollar. We also received a second grant through the LSU Foundation for the grant, which is an in-house kind of thing. But we're also seeking funds from NSF, the National Science Foundation and the National Institute of Health to do more of the in-lab protein genomic research here. But the exploration funding is extremely exciting. And it's very rare to happen upon that kind of funding, so we're, super, super, super excited.
Becky Carmichael
[38:47] Well, and I would also imagine that they're very competitive and that the granting opportunity isn't always as frequent. So then there's many people that are trying to compete. So it's wonderful that you were able to out-compete them for it
Zack Rodriguez
[39:03] It is. I feel like I won the lottery. But I think it is... I think we are reaping our rewards now. I think the study we published last year received so much attention and received a lot of publicity. And I think we're able to use that to show that people are excited about this project and we can continue to work on it.
Becky Carmichael
[39:22] So Zach, you've been doing research, you've mentioned that you've done a couple of like, one week to two week expeditions.
Zack Rodriguez
[39:29] Mhmm.
Becky Carmichael
[39:29] And as a fellow field researcher, I know there's been moments where you get out there. And you have this moment where something doesn't work?
Zack Rodriguez
[39:42] Oh, yeah.
Becky Carmichael
[39:43] So then means that you have to be very flexible and creative. Do you have a moment or moments when you've had to improvise or MacGyver your way to achieve your achieve the goal?
Zack Rodriguez
[39:58] Whew... That's a great question. I honest.. I don't have a specific example. But my fieldwork, like you said needs to be extremely flexible. I mean, when I go and collect reptiles, or DNA from say... Louisiana, I use whatever I can get my hands on. I use extra like pieces of tin, wood, and tire to create a suitable habitat for snakes when I don't have, you know, the appropriate thing. I'll build little habitats or shelters in the wild that I can come back and check a week later if I forget something. Cat food makes great emergency turtle bait.
Becky Carmichael
[40:37] Cat food?!
Zack Rodriguez
[40:38] I had a... we were trying to collect these amphibians called amphiumas. And our traps got a hole... They were bitten through and they were destroyed. But we found some crawfish traps that served as excellent amphibian catching devices. Just a lot of little things that just grabbing whatever I can find. Oh, there's a lot of puzzle solving that goes into lab work. I love experimenting with different protocols, things like that. Or you run out of a certain reagent when you're extracting DNA and try to come up with another solution.
Becky Carmichael
[41:12] Something on the fly. It's funny that you mentioned the amphiumas because Dr. John Pojman did an episode with us.
Zack Rodriguez
[41:20] They're super cool and weird.
Becky Carmichael
[41:21] Oh my gosh, they're so weird but I love that he posts pictures of Dion. He still has his one in his lab. Apparently not just cat food, but hot dogs also might work
Zack Rodriguez
[41:36] I actually didn't know that! That's awesome!
Becky Carmichael
[41:39] I'll show you the picture of her enjoying a hot dog. It's kind of cute.
Zack Rodriguez
[41:43] Oh that'd be great. So they actually eat... They're actually really gnarly. They're pretty dangerous. And I'd rather grab a snake or a lizard than an amphiuma because they eat crawfish.
Becky Carmichael
[41:51] Yeah.
Zack Rodriguez
[41:51] And they have extremely hard biting force to bite through these crawfish and they can take off a finger.
Becky Carmichael
[41:57] He did not tell me that whenever he let me hold one.
Zack Rodriguez
[42:00] Oh, yeah?
Becky Carmichael
[42:01] I'm glad. I'm glad I didn't know that. So that's then really kind of leads me to my other favorite question. Which is what's the coolest, craziest, weirdest or most dangerous thing that you've done in the name of your research?
Zack Rodriguez
[42:19] Oh boy.
Becky Carmichael
[42:20] And I would imagine, with reptiles and amphibians, you've had some interesting moments.
Zack Rodriguez
[42:28] I've admittedly had some really embarrassing encounters. I'm a herpetologists at heart, even when I'm not collecting and grabbing reptiles and lizards for my research project. I still do it anyway. I love going out and finding all the different... I mean, the southeast United States also a hot spot for biodiversity. And I've jumped out of moving vehicles to go get a snake. I've definitely jumped out of a Jeep, you know, with the... What is it? Like a drop top Jeep? Just to try and catch a snake that I think I haven't seen before.
Becky Carmichael
[43:03] Does this include venomous and nonvenomous?
Zack Rodriguez
[43:06] I try to stay away from venomous but this does bring up... I remember this one time. So there's this... have you ever heard of a Louisiana pine snake?
Becky Carmichael
[43:13] Oh yeah!
Zack Rodriguez
[43:14] They're threatened and I found one in Kisatchie National Forest where they actually released some to trying to introduce more into the population. And I was ecstatic and I wasn't thinking clearly. And I ran and I chased this thing. I didn't grab it because you know they're protected. But I chased this thing under a log flipped over the log. And I wanted a picture of it so bad and it was like curled up in defense and I tried to push all the other leaf litter and sticks away.
Becky Carmichael
[43:40] With your hand?!
Zack Rodriguez
[43:41] With my hands. There's pine snake here. And I was like, oh, there's logs and leaf litter and I need a picture and I scooped it away and there's a baby Copperhead just sitting there. That was probably one of the worst mistakes I've ever made. But it was in the name of science. I did get a really terrible picture of a pine snake. And I was terrified and embarrassed that I came so close to grabbing a Copperhead without looking which extremely venomous.
Becky Carmichael
[44:05] Oh, yeah... Yeah, that just... No... I'm now... Yeah, no. I'm speechless.
Zack Rodriguez
[44:13] And this is similar... Not as dangerous as that one. But similar scenarios have happened. And I know people are always like, ooh, venomous snakes. They're terrifying and they bite you. But I've encountered so many venomous snakes in the wild and they're pretty docile. They want to get away from you. And luckily, this baby Copperhead, when I brushed it aside, wanted nothing more than to scurry away.
Becky Carmichael
[44:32] Thank goodness.
Zack Rodriguez
[44:34] Maybe that wasn't in the name of science, but it was definitely in the name of exploring.
Becky Carmichael
[44:39] I think what that says is that, you know, you're never not with your scientist hat on. Right?
Zack Rodriguez
[44:45] Correct.
Becky Carmichael
[44:45] And I'll admit, I mean, it's it's been a while since I've been able to go out and do and be in the field. But I am still constantly thinking about those questions. And then when I see something cool I'm just right there, right? Wanting to get that picture.
Zack Rodriguez
[45:02] Of course.
Becky Carmichael
[45:04] Okay, so now I'm going to remember baby Copperhead and pine snakes. Oh, my goodness. Alright, so we're switch gears a little bit, because it would be a serious disservice to let you out of this space without talking about your extravagant recipes, and your food obsessions.
Zack Rodriguez
[45:23] Sure.
Becky Carmichael
[45:24] And we're going to just take a few minutes, and we're going to foodie out a little bit.
Zack Rodriguez
[45:29] I love it.
Becky Carmichael
[45:30] And I don't know how it was, but somehow I encountered I want to say your Instagram account first, and then got obsessed.
Zack Rodriguez
[45:45] I'm glad you like it.
Becky Carmichael
[45:46] I do. I'm always... One, it is the types of food that you are preparing and the quantity.
Zack Rodriguez
[45:53] Mhmm.
Becky Carmichael
[45:53] So first, I want you to share your Instagram. Your account with your food.
ZACK RODRIGUEZ
Sure.
Becky Carmichael
Please share that. You can also do that for your science. We'll make sure that gets linked into the episode as well.
Zack Rodriguez
[46:04] Of course.
Becky Carmichael
[46:05] But yeah! How did you get this? When did this start?
Zack Rodriguez
[46:10] Sure. I've always been interested in food. And I actually do want to start off by saying something a little different. I'd like to say that there's a stigma that scientists are these emotionless robot workers and basically like personality-less teachers, but we're human. We have hobbies. We have passions. We have creative outlets that are outside science. And cooking is definitely one of mine. And I don't know. I love experimenting with different recipes and tasting different things. And I think I actually get to apply that to science. I mean, people are always saying, "You're good scientist and cooking is an exact science, therefore you're good cook." But I think that's so untrue because science isn't even an exact science. I view cooking is this big experiment. I love experimenting with different recipes, different spices, different techniques. And I find it fascinating. So I find every little recipe I create is like a little experiment. And I definitely get to apply that to science too. But I love enjoying the food and sharing the food that I create.
Becky Carmichael
[47:13] So what what are some of the cuisines that you enjoy the most?
Zack Rodriguez
[47:16] Oh so I'm Puerto Rican. And my Instagram is @boricuabites and boricua means I'm Puerto Rican. And I cook lots of Caribbean food like pork and tacos and rice and beans. Also I really enjoy... I try to be vegan sometimes. I try to be vegan as many days out of the week. And that's always fun and challenging. Trying to cook interesting recipes that don't include meat.
Becky Carmichael
[47:42]
And that I think is something that really... I definitely love my pork and that's because I grew up on a Hog Farm way back when.
Zack Rodriguez
[47:51] Oh, awesome.
Becky Carmichael
[47:52] Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I have this love affair with pigs.
Zack Rodriguez
[47:57] Mhmm.
Becky Carmichael
[47:58] But then I'm also like, I shouldn't eat so many pigs. Anyway. But then I saw that you were posting... The last one I saw were the eggplants.
Zack Rodriguez
[48:12] Oh yeah. That was very recent. Spears?
Becky Carmichael
[48:14] Yes! I got super excited because it's... I like that you're showing different tastes and different ways to have similar, like, textures and flavors.
Zack Rodriguez
[48:27] Yeah of course. And that was a total experiment. I don't even... I think even in my post, I said, "this is an experiment." I soaked some eggplant in some salt water to try and get some of the weird eggplant flavor out and also stiffens it up a little bit. And then I beer batter them and fried them. And that turned out crunchy and great.
Becky Carmichael
[48:46] Did you use a particular beer?
Zack Rodriguez
[48:48] Whatever it was in my fridge.
Becky Carmichael
[48:49] Perfect.
Zack Rodriguez
[48:49] It was IPA or something? Again, I don't... Cooking is not an exact science. It's pretty forgiving.
Becky Carmichael
[48:54] So do you find that cooking is an outlet for balance with your Ph.D. work?
Zack Rodriguez
[49:04] 100%! As much as I say that I've used some of the techniques for cooking. In my science, if that weren't true, I'd still cook. I think that it's important to have creative outlets. I know many graduate students have creative outlets. Some write. Of course I write and read outside of science. Some people draw. I know many of my friends create really fun graphic designs. And I think having a hobby that isn't science is extremely important. And I think it helps you become a well rounded scientist.
Becky Carmichael
[49:44] It's something about having those moments where you're not, you know, eyeball deep in your questions and the theory and the publications.
Zack Rodriguez
[49:53] Mhmm.
Becky Carmichael
[49:53] I personally think that it's a moment where I can just let my brain play.
Zack Rodriguez
[49:59] Oh yeah. Decompress too.
Becky Carmichael
[50:00] It's amazing. So whether it's... a lot of times I'll tell students that if they're having like mental blocks, or something's happening, go take a walk and just kind of allow yourself to just be. For me, I've also found that, you know, either when I'm cooking or doing some of the other things I like to do gardening, whatever. I don't know. It's like my mind tends to relax.
Zack Rodriguez
[50:23] Oh of course. And then when you come back to the science, you're a little more refreshed, you can even be excited about it. Again, not that I'm not excited about it. More excited than you were when you left.
Becky Carmichael
[50:32] Absolutely. Um, so when did you start cooking? Has this been something that you've always done?
Zack Rodriguez
[50:39] Yeah, um, my mom was a great cook, and she always encouraged me to cook. She made me cook my own meals. But I really wasn't a great cook until maybe undergrad and after I graduated when I really had money and full freedom to explore. And actually, it's really fun cooking on a budget. I get really, really creative.
Becky Carmichael
[50:59] Absolutely.
Zack Rodriguez
[51:02] Yeah, I've always been interested in food. And I just I love experimenting. And I get really excited about experimenting, and I'm always telling my friends like, it's kind of... we do like Iron Chef days, where I'll invite like three days over. I'm like, "what's in your fridge?" And they're like, "not much." I'm like, "whatever you have, bring it. We got a we have a carrot, a piece of chicken, broccoli and a tortilla. What can we make?" And it’s really fun.
Becky Carmichael
[51:24] That just blew my mind right now because this is something that we have talked about. I talked about with my friends about I want to just do an Iron Chef party. And I don't want to do new Iron Chef, I want to do old school. Right? A la cuisine and just go! Oh my gosh
Zack Rodriguez
[51:40] it's really fun. And everyone gets an input and everyone has a say in what gets cooked and that's something that my friends and fellow graduate students do. And it's a really great outlet that's not science.
Becky Carmichael
[51:50] So you have to also be very popular then with some of the fellow graduates who are on a budget as well.
Zack Rodriguez
[51:55] I am. It's great. I've definitely used food to make some friends.
Becky Carmichael
[52:00] Good!
Zack Rodriguez
[52:01] Which I'm not ashamed of.
Becky Carmichael
[52:03] No! Food, like happy bellies, like yeah, happy conversations.
Zack Rodriguez
[52:07] Oh, yeah.
Becky Carmichael
[52:10] I know I asked you what kind of cuisine you cook. What is your... Is that also your favorite cuisine?
Zack Rodriguez
[52:16] Yeah, I love Caribbean food. I grew up I grew up in New York and there's tons of Caribbeans there. There's Jamaicans. There's Creole. There's tons of Puerto Ricans. There's Colombians. And I just love the like Caribbean and Latin American cuisine. It's so colorful. There's all these bright and pungent flavors and spicy flavors. And they just fall in love with that.
Becky Carmichael
[52:37] What? What is a cuisine that you would really like to try?
Zack Rodriguez
[52:41] Oh, try? Oh, that's a hard one. I've never tried New Guinea food. But according to my advisor, it's actually not the best. That's a great question. I think Russian. I haven't had a lot of Russian food. I think they have a lot of interesting, pungent fermenty flavors that I could really get into.
Becky Carmichael
[53:03] I agree that would be something interesting. Like that Icelandic...
Zack Rodriguez
[53:08] Yeah!
Becky Carmichael
[53:09] Just that whole region I think would be really kind of interesting. So the question I had for you, was whether or not you plan... since you haven't got there. So, if you've already done this, you can tell me if you want.
Zack Rodriguez
[53:24] Sure.
Becky Carmichael
[53:26] Do you plan on intentionally or unintentionally tasting these green lizards?
Zack Rodriguez
[53:33] Okay. We're going to do some general surveying and collecting. And say we put out a trap or something and we collect something that's too cumbersome or something that's too large. And we don't necessarily want and or if the natives, the people that we're with will be cooking for us. And if they hunt and grab something and cook it up for us, I would totally try it. As for the green blooded lizards. Super interesting. One of the first hypotheses that Chris had, was that the... because I mean, the internal morphology is just insane. I have a photo. I mean, they're bright green. This is a sample of their blood.
Becky Carmichael
[54:15] Oh my gosh. We're gonna...
Zack Rodriguez
[54:18] I can send you this photo if you want.
Becky Carmichael
[54:19] You're going to send me this photo. We're going to do this too.
Zack Rodriguez
[54:23] Yeah. This blood is just so bright green. And the first time I did a tissue extraction on these lizards. I was like, I remember I was like Chris. The bones are green. He's like, yes Zack. I know.. I'm like, No, no, but they're green green. The muscle and the bones. They're green. He's like, that's why we're studying this. I'm like, I know, but they're so green.
Becky Carmichael
[54:43] And they're lime green. Really?!
Zack Rodriguez
[54:45] Yeah. It's insane. So the first hypothesis that... and it smells. It has a little bit of a smell to it. Kind of like antifreeze, I guess.
Yeah. So Chris's first thought was that it's actually anti predator... Prevents a
predator from eating them. Might be like a deterrent, because it might be distasteful.
So he actually conducted feeding experiments, he would present them I don't know,
I don't know exactly the logistics of it. I'm sure he did it in a humane way of some
sort, or observed them. And they're readily eaten by snakes, hawks and other lizards.
And in fact, I talked with this one professor who lived in New Guinea for a little
bit and he said his cats loved these green blooded lizards. And when the cats would
bring them in, they would relish in like more so than any mice they will, Nom, nom,
nom, nom nom, like these cats, but it had this awful smell to it. Chris took it upon
himself to try and he said it's digestible. But the blood... he took a sample of the
blood down his mouth, not the lizard. And he said it's extremely distasteful, but
it's edible. And he said, and I quote "that it tasted like bad sushi". Which isn't
something that I'd want to taste.
BECKY CARMICHAEL
None of us want to taste bad sushi.
ZACK RODRIGUEZ
Of course not. And biliverdin... I mean, if we get biliverdin in our stomachs, we can digest it. It's when it's in our blood, it's a problem. But yeah, I don't know if... I guess given the opportunity... I probably if I was taking blood samples, I would probably find them too precious to taste although I would be extremely, extremely curious. I mean, I love exotic food. So this is an opportunity. But I probably would see the blood sample too precious. If there was an accident of some sort,
Becky Carmichael
[56:23] Then maybe! I don't know for me, you know, we eat with our eyes and our nose. Now that you've told me that it smells like antifreeze. I don't know if I'd want to just go ahead and take that little little snack.
Zack Rodriguez
[56:40] But I mean, as I'm super interested in funky, weird flavors. I love trying things. I don’t know. We'll see. If it happens, I will come back and let you know.
Becky Carmichael
[56:50] You have to. I'm excited to hear this because I am curious. I'm curious about, you know, what this location is going to be like. Really excited to hear from you what it sounded like.
Zack Rodriguez
[57:07] Oh yeah. Of course.
Becky Carmichael
[57:08] Because I can imagine us with the different ecosystems and even in the Ecotone areas, the different things that you're going to hear and just the sensory overload.
Zack Rodriguez
[57:18] Of course there's going to be wind and rain and there's birds of paradise. I'm sure you've heard of are beautiful. There's more than 700 species of birds that are only found in New Guinea and they're gonna... I'm surrounded by bird people all day, but birds are pretty cool. And I'm excited to hear the frog calls. Chris has some amazing tropical frog calling sounds and I'm super excited. It maybe hard to sleep the first couple of nights, but I'm pretty excited for it. And I don't remember if you're involved, but we're definitely going to do our best to take social media to New Guinea with us. And we're going to have GoPros with us. And every time we get to a place that has internet we'll give LSU updates through the Instagram accounts and we'll have a little videos so everybody can come to New Guinea with us and one of the stipulations of National Geographic, you know, they love to document the world. So one of the stipulations that we do have to take tons of photos, tons of recordings, tons of videos, and then share them with the world and create YouTube videos and things. And I think that's gonna be super fun.
Becky Carmichael
[58:25] I am so excited to see what you get to come back. And then also hear your kind of your personal experience after this.
Zack Rodriguez
Me too. I can't wait to share.
Becky Carmichael
Awesome, awesome. Is there anything else that you wanted? Any last advice or last thoughts that you'd want to leave with our listeners?
Zack Rodriguez
[58:43] Not necessarily. I can't think of anything specific. But I'm super grateful for... Thank you for having me. I'm super grateful for the opportunity to work with lizards and go to this unexplored region. And I'm glad for the opportunity to present my case for studying these green blooded lizards and for just basic studies and evolutionary ecology because a lot of times it goes under the radar and everyone always asks like, oh, well why don't you just like curing cancer if you're so smart? Or like why don't you just like, figure out how to cure jaundice instead of the green blooded lizards but it's so much more than that. And I'm super excited about the opportunity to do basic discovery science.
Becky Carmichael
[59:24] Zach, it's been a real pleasure talking to you today. Thank you so much!
Zack Rodriguez
[59:27] Yeah, thank you so much. I loved it.
Becky Carmichael
[59:32] This episode of LSU Experimental was recorded and produced in the CxC Studio 151 here on the campus of Louisiana State University, and is supported by LSU's Communication Across the Curriculum, and the College of Science. Today's interview was produced by Kyle Sirovy, and our theme music is "Branbi at Full Gallop" by PC3. To learn more about today's episode, subscribe to the podcast, ask questions and recommend future investigators visit cxc.lsu.edu/experimental.